Pelovitz (II)
Samuel Pelovitz’s Entire Grand Jury Testimony
December 10, 1948
SAMUEL J. PELOVITZ, called as a witness, having first been duly sworn by the foreman, testified as follows:
Q. Mr. Pelovitz, have you consulted counsel before coming here?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you give us the name of your counsel?
A. His name is Shefferman.
Q. Where is his office?
A. In Baltimore.
Q. Do you know the local address?
A. It is the Franklin building, which is at Gilford and Baltimore Street.
Q. Now, in addition to whatever Mr. Shefferman has told you, I also want to tell you here that, as we go along, the questions put to you will be of such a nature that it is possible you may feel that an answer to them would serve to incriminate you or degrade you. If you feel that an answer to any of these questions will incriminate or degrade you, you have the privilege of refusing to answer such questions. You understand that fully – do you know what that means?
A. Well, I don’t know the technical definition of “degrade,” but I suppose I would understand the “incriminate” part.
Q. Well, a grand jury is engaged in an inquiry in every instance to determine whether or not a crime has been committed. Now, if I ask you a question and your answer to that question would tend to implicate you in the commission of a crime, you don’t have to the answer. That is all that means.
A. I meant the word “degrade.”
Q. Oh, degrade – I don’t think we will ask you any degrading questions.
A. Just because you put it in, sir.
Q. I put it in because the Founding Fathers put it in. To “degrade” means legally to depreciate a person’s character or reputation. That is about the best way to define it. At any rate, you know what your rights are?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, understanding those rights, are you willing to testify?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Mr. Pelovitz, how old a man are you?
A. I am 40.
Q. Where were you born?
A. In New York City.
Q. Have you lived in New York all your life?
A. No, sir, I have lived in Baltimore most of my life.
Q. What education do you have?
A. High school – not quite finished.
Q. Did you get that in Baltimore – all of your education?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you have a trade or business?
A. I am a printer.
Q. And how long have you been a printer?
A. Since 1928.
Q. Since 1928?
A. That’s right.
Q. You say you have been living in Baltimore for about how long?
A. Well, I was brought there when I was a child, probably under six. I don’t remember, I don’t know the exact year.
Q. Well, yesterday you were interviewed by agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation of Baltimore?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you talked to them back and forth, and they asked you questions and you gave them answers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And subsequently your conversation with them was reduced pretty much to the form of a written statement, was it not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And after that statement was typed up, was it read to you or did you read it?
A. I read it.
Q. And was that correct?
A. I believe it was, to my recollection.
Q. And they asked you to sign it, but you declined to sign it. Is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have any particular reason for declining to sign it?
A. My only reason was that I have not had the advice of counsel, and the circumstances were such that I was quite confused about a lot of things.
I had been given no notice, of course, of the interview I was to have with them. They came to my place of employment and asked me to come out to their office with them, without explaining why, and that was about 10:30 in the morning; and I spoke to them until about 5:30 or so; and I just didn’t feel that I was in a proper position to do anything without having had the advice of somebody else.
As a matter of fact, there is, I think, a statement in the statement itself, at the very beginning, that I had been informed that I was able to have legal counsel, but even that was not told to me until about 5:00 or so; and then again, at that time, they simply handed me the subpoena telling me that I was to be here this morning, and so there didn’t seem to be much point in it.
Q. Well – in this statement, as I have it here, it shows your various places of residence in Baltimore. Suppose I read it to you, and you can tell me whether or not this information is correct: “Among other places, I have resided in Baltimore, during 1931 to 1934, at 1416 East Baltimore Street, and during about seven or eight months of 1934 at, I believe, 2118 Callow Avenue. Again, from about January 1938, for approximately 1 year, at 1416 East Baltimore Street, and from sometime late in 1938 until about May 1941, at 2113 Brookfield Avenue, in an apartment on the third floor.”
Does that about summarize your residences?
A. To the best of my recollection, it does.
Q. Now, in this statement, as I have it, you told them that in the fall of 1936 you went to New York and took employment as a house manager at the 55th Street Playhouse, 154 West 55th Street. Is that about right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at that time a printer?
A. Yes.
Q. And printing was your primary trade?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. While you were living down there in Baltimore, before you took this job in New York City, were you employed by a printer?
A. Yes, sir; I was working with my father.
Q. What is your father’s first name?
A. Joshua was his first name; he is not alive.
Q. You say he is deceased?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You carried on his business?
A. Well, I did, until I was inducted into the Navy in 1944, and I sold it at that time.
Q. How long were you in the printing business, your father’s printing business?
A. From 1928 until about the fall of 1936; and then again when he died, in 1938, and from that time on until it was sold in 1944.
Q. Did you learn the business by growing up with it, with him?
A. More or less, yes, sir.
Q. You didn’t have any special training in printing, did you?
A. I went to the Mergenthaler College School of Printing in Baltimore while I was employed with him, for a little while.
Q. How did you happen to come to New York and get a job there as a house manager in the theater?
A. That wasn’t an immediate transition. I didn’t come to get this job. I thought I would like to break out of the printing business and get something else, and that was my reason for leaving. I had been interested in the theater, and thought I might do something in that line.
Q. Now, Mr. Pelovitz, you stayed on that job at the playhouse for about a year, according to your statement, up to December 19th, 1937?
A. Not all that time. It was about seven or eight months altogether.
Q. In the statement you said that during that period from the fall of 1936 until about December of 1937, you lived in a number of rooming houses, furnished apartments, because your wife came to New York City only occasionally for visits, is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And about the summer of 1937 you were in Baltimore for approximately one month, at which time you lived with your family at the home of your mother-in-law, a Mrs. Leah Pushkin, who then resided in the 3400 block of Park Heights Avenue. Is that a correct statement?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Did you just go back there for a month’s vacation?
A. That’s correct, according to my recollection. I went back there during the summer months because there wasn’t very much to do here. I think it was only a period of about a month. I have no exact dates.
Q. When you went back to Baltimore finally, when did you say that was?
A. It was, I think, in December of 1938, but I am not positive of the month. It may have been November.
Q. It was late in 1938?
A. It was late in 1938.
Q. Then you went back to the printing business there?
A. That’s right.
Q. Up until the time you sold out and went in the Navy?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you know a man named David Zimmerman?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Man named Jesse Zimmerman?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did you meet them?
A. It was in the 1930s, I believe. That’s as close as I can get to it.
Q. Did you know either David or Jesse Zimmerman by any other names?
A. To the best of my recollection, I did not. I do not recall the name – I suppose the name – it was suggested to me that he had another name. I do not recall his having used that name.
Q. Do you know where either David or Jesse Zimmerman now is?
A. I did not know yesterday. I have an idea now.
Q. What idea do you have now?
A. In the local newspaper last night they carried an item that David Carpenter had testified here. It was suggested there that he had been using that name, and he is living in Europe now, according to the newspaper account, he was living in New York. I assume that may be correct.
Q. Do you recall how you happened to meet the Zimmerman brothers?
A. No, sir, not exactly.
Q. What were they doing when you first met them? What was their business?
A. It was my understanding that David was a chemist, but I did not know what his employment was at the time.
Q. By the way, do you have any hobbies?
A. The only hobby I might have would be an interest in theater.
Q. Do you go in much for photography?
A. Not at all. I know nothing about it.
Q. Nothing at all about it?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. Did you have people working for you up in your father’s printing place who were photographers?
A. Never.
Q. Were the Zimmermans interested in photography, too?
A. I do not know. I do not recall that either of them was.
Q. You told the Bureau agents, as I have it in here, that the Zimmermans were associated in a literary or art group of persons, like yourself, who were interested in intellectual pursuits, is that a fair statement?
A. Yes.
Q. When you talk about intellectual pursuits, what do you have in mind, the theater?
A. Such things as the theater, literature, art, that kind of thing. We also played poker and blackjack together.
Q. That was one of the intellectual pursuits?
A. Yes.
Q. With regard to David Zimmerman, you said he recalled that he lived with his mother and Jesse on Jackson Place?
A. Yes.
Q. Near the corner of Fairmont Avenue.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The number being about 100 Jackson Place in Baltimore?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go to their house and visit them frequently?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they come to your house?
A. David did fairly often.
Q. What did – did you know David pretty well?
A. I believe I did. The reason I qualify that is because David was rather a vague sort of person inclined to be a little secretive, and he did not volunteer very much information about himself, and you got the impression that he did not welcome being asked about himself, so you just did not.
Q. I ask you if you know what they did for a living, the Zimmerman brothers?
A. That was also a little bit vague. I tried to recall yesterday. The only thing I can recall about David’s occupation was that he was a chemist, but of course that is what he told me. I got the impression at one time he was working as a paint chemist, but I did not know whether it was so, except I also got the impression it was somewhere on the outskirts of Baltimore, outside of the city.
Q. Did David do any writing, do you know?
A. Yes, sir, he did. That was the thing which was supposed to be his primary interest. I recall since I spoke to these gentleman yesterday that he had at one time worked for the Baltimore Sun papers, I believe as a proofreader. That’s also on his say-so.
Q. You don’t know?
A. I do not know. To my own knowledge, I do not know. I cannot recall any other employment that he may have had.
Q. Do you know how to run a photostating machine?
A. Photostatic machine? No, sir.
Q. Photostating machine.
A. No.
Q. Do you know what a photostat is?
A. I know what photostats are but I do not know how to operate such a machine.
Q. Did David know how to run such a machine?
A. I wouldn’t know that.
Q. Or Jesse?
A. I don’t know that.
Q. When you met with these fellows, what did you do, call them by their first names?
A. Yes.
Q. What would you call him, David?
A. Yes.
Q. What would David call you?
A. Sam.
Q. Did you ever have any other nicknames?
A. No, sir.
Q. Anybody ever call you Felix?
A. No, sir; not to my knowledge or recollection.
Q. Never known as Felix?
A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Q. To any of your friends?
A. To any of my friends? No, sir.
Q. Never at all?
A. To my recollection I can’t recall any situation in which anyone would ever have called me by the name of Felix.
Q. Is there any doubt about it in your mind that you were not called Felix?
A. No, there isn’t.
Q. Let’s run along here and see how much we can skip by reading this: “David was employed for a while as a chemist with an unknown concern located outside Baltimore, possibly somewhere between Baltimore and Washington, D.C. Dave was also formerly employed in the late 1930s for an unknown period, in some capacity with the Workers’ Alliance of America, Washington D.C.” Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I happen to know that because he got me some printing orders from the Workers’ Alliance.
Q. Were you a member of the Workers’ Alliance?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then you follow through: “I was in the printing business at that time, doing business as the Premier Printing Company, 1416 East Baltimore Street, Baltimore, Md., and received some printing jobs from the Workers’ Alliance of America.” Now, as for Jesse, you say you do not know what he did for a living except possibly he might have worked in one of the Baltimore department stores?
A. I recall a couple of things that he did, but only after I spoke with these gentleman. I remember that he had a job on the WPA as a writer, and I believe that that’s what he was doing when he was inducted into the service.
Q. When did you last see Jesse?
A. I haven’t seen Jesse since about 1942 or ’43.
Q. When did you last see David?
A. Sometime the same period. But I do not remember just when.
Q. You mean just before you went into the Navy?
A. A year or two before that or somewhere thereabouts, I just can’t remember.
Q. You say in this statement: “I always thought that both David and Jesse Zimmerman were members of the Communist Party, but I have no proof to substantiate this belief.” Is that correct?
A. I believe it is, yes, sir.
Q. What gave you the idea that they were Communist Party members?
A. Well, that’s kind of a difficult thing to describe. I don’t know; as they say, I had no proof. It was just as a result of a series of vague statements or suggestions either by themselves or by others, which kind of group together into a belief. I do not recall that either one of them ever told me that he was.
Q. You know any people whom you know to be members of the Communist Party?
A. I know those that are publicized as members of the Communist party.
Q. Such as whom?
A. In Baltimore there is a Dr. Bloomberg, who is supposed to be the chairman of the Party.
Q. He’s the open secretary of it in Baltimore, Dr. Bloomberg.
A. Yes.
Q. And people like that. How do you know they are members, by reading in the papers or what?
A. Because they have said they were for publication.
Q. Again I ask you, do you know that because you heard them, or because you read it in the papers?
A. I believe I have heard them.
Q. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. How long were you a member of the Communist Party?
A. I was a member on two separate occasions, in 1936 for a short while, and when I came to New York I left – I drifted away – and then I rejoined possibly in the middle of 1938, after I got back to Baltimore, and I kind of drifted away from that again in 1939, 1940 or thereabouts.
Q. Why did you drift away?
A. Well, I changed my ideas about them.
Q. Was it in connection with your membership in the Party that you knew David and Jesse?
A. I was trying to recall that, and I do not believe I did. I can recall many instances or occasions at which I saw them, let us say, in action.
Q. Did you pay Party dues while you were a member?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To whom did you pay the dues?
A. To the – I don’t know. I paid them for a while to, I think it was Mrs. Bloomberg, Dr. Bloomberg’s wife, and there were other occasions when I paid them to others, but I do not recall them now.
Q. Did you ever pay them to David or Jesse?
A. I do not recall ever having paid to them, no, sir.
Q. Did you ever collect their dues?
A. No, sir, I do not recall that.
Q. Did you ever go to meetings of the Party?
A. I went to occasional meetings.
Q. Were those generally city-wide meetings?
A. Well, there were some, yes, sir.
Q. Did you belong to some particular cell or block?
A. Well, I did, I think. My memory on that is kind of vague, because I did not do very much of any organizational work as such, that I recall. I was doing – just paying dues and attending occasional meetings. We had – there were branches, but I do not recall now to any particular one that I was assigned.
Q. Didn’t you go to meetings?
A. I went to some meetings, yes, sir.
Q. Did you meet David or Jesse at those meetings?
A. I do not recall ever meeting either one of them at a meeting of the Communist Party.
BY JURORS:
Q. When you attended those meetings, you weren’t an active member then. Were you ever given an assignment by the Party?
A. No specific assignments that I can recall.
Q. Anything at all. Nothing at all that you were told to do for the Party?
A. Beyond tasks of recruiting members whenever possible, something like that, I do not recall any specific assignments.
Q. Did you print any literature for them?
A. Purely on a business basis.
Q. You mean you got paid for it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you were in the Navy, were you an active Communist?
A. No, sir. I started drifting away. I attended no meetings and had no connections for, as I can recall, since about 1940, 1941. I was inducted into the Navy in 1944.
Q. Did you notice any Communist activities in the Navy?
A. No, sir. I did not.
Q. You came in contact with none of them?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you were in New York, you were connected with the Communist Party?
A. No, sir. That was the theory, as I explained before. When I joined in 1936, it must have been a couple of months before deciding to come here [New York City], and here I was interested in other things and I drifted away and made no contacts here.
Q. Did they come after you?
A. I do not recall that anyone in particular came after me; no, sir.
Q. Do you recall anybody in general? Was there any approach of any kind?
A. I do not recall any; no, sir.
Q. Did you continue getting literature from them?
A. No, sir. I got no literature that I can remember.
Q. And notices of meetings?
A. I do not recall any. I think it was supposed to be my duty, let us say, to report here when I arrived. But I made no such reports that I can recall and attended no meetings here and had no contact with them.
Q. Did you give your card up?
A. I do not recall definitely giving it up or anything like that. As a matter of fact I do not recall that I carried a card with me.
Q. Do you think you still have the card?
A. Do I think I still have the card?
Q. Yes.
A. Is that what you mean?
Q. The old card.
A. No, sir. As I recall, those cards were to a large extent held by somebody who’s supposed to be a kind of leader, the person who can ask you to get dues.
Q. What was your own experience with the card, did you ever have one actually?
A. I do not recall. I do not remember. I must have at one time. I do not remember whether I retained it for any length of time. I know I have no such cards now.
Q. You dropped out twice, apparently?
A. That’s right.
Q. What happened in the interval when you were out and went back – you were in and then you were out and then you were in. What happened in the interval?
A. Nothing.
Q. You did not pay dues in that interim period?
A. No, sir.
Q. What name was on your card, if you can recall?
A. I believe the name was Perry.
Q. Perry?
A. I think so.
Q. Only one name? Did the card contain just one name?
A. Oh, no, it probably contained my first name, Sam.
Q. Sam Perry instead of Sam Pelovitz?
A. I believe so.
Q. Is that it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Instead of your real name, Sam Perry?
A. That’s right.
Q. Did you use the name Perry otherwise?
A. No, sir.
Q. Where did you get that name?
A. Well, I gave it.
Q. For what reason?
A. Oh, simply because I didn’t want to be known as one, that’s all.
Q. You mean you were a Communist but did not want to be known as one?
A. That’s right.
Q. Why didn’t you want to be known as one?
A. Well, it is a little difficult to explain. It might have been adverse publicity. It was kind of a fashion, I think. It was suggested that I do it. We live in a rather small community and I didn’t want it generally known.
Q. Who suggested it?
A. I do not remember that anyone in particular did.
Q. You assumed it was a regular procedure, then, to use an irregular name, is that it?
A. That’s right.
Q. Was that the name you used twice? You say you were in and out of the party. Did you use the same name both times?
A. I believe so.
Q. Did they know your real name?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Let me ask you this. You have seen pictures of this Whittaker Chambers, haven’t you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever seen Whittaker Chambers personally?
A. A couple of hours ago.
Q. Outside this door?
A. Outside this door.
Q. Will you tell the grand jury, have you seen Whittaker Chambers prior to today?
A. To my recollection I have never seen him before.
Q. Mr. Pelovitz, your testimony here today certainly indicates that you are a fellow who was willing to tell the truth and be perfectly honest and helpful.
A. I definitely am.
Q. Unlike practically everyone who was a member of the same organization that you were previously a member of. Now, you can be of great assistance to this grand jury if you will consider your answer carefully and do not hold back. Now this fellow, Whittaker Chambers, by all means say you have seen him, because you can be of great help. Go ahead. Have you seen Whittaker Chambers before?
A. To my knowledge or recollection, I have never seen him before.
Q. Either under that name or any other name?
A. Neither under that name or any other name. I just do not recall having seen him before.
Q. Will you say you did not see him? Will you testify you did not see him?
A. To my recollection, I have never seen him before.
Q. I show you a photograph here and ask you if you recognize anybody in this picture?
A. This, I believe, is David Zimmerman.
Q. David Zimmerman?
A. I am not sure because he looks a little heavier than when I knew him.
Q. Let me take a sheet of paper here. I don’t want to – I have a complete list of names here. By this you mean the man standing with his back against the lamppost?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. With the gray coat and apparently a briefcase or something under his arm?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you say whether or not that is David Zimmerman?
A. I believe that it is. That’s the best I can do. He looks heavier than when I knew him.
Q. You recognize either of the other two people in the picture, the woman or the man?
A. No, sir.
Q. On the side of this picture, there is a single cutout which shows the same man with the gray coat, apparently it is from the same picture, from the same photograph. You do not have any doubt in your mind that this is a picture of David Zimmerman?
A. As I say, the only doubt is that he looks so much heavier than when I saw him last and than he’s ever been.
Q. How about this Whittaker Chambers, what is your best answer on that?
A. The one I gave you, that I don’t recall having seen him before.
Q. Are you really honest with us on that?
A. I am. definitely. I do not recall having seen him before. As a matter of fact, I will make it more positive except for the fact that I have heard it said it is possible to have met people without recalling them, under the most casual circumstances.
Q. Who advised you on that?
A. As a matter of fact, it was suggested some – when I said yesterday, in talking to those FBI gentleman, that it is fantastic that I should be considered to have had anything to do with this or to have known Whittaker Chambers, those gentleman from the FBI said it isn’t fantastic at all; you are both human beings and you may conceivably have met. It is very possible that a person can meet someone 10 or 12 years in the past and not recall having done so, on a casual basis.
Q. Do you know anyone named Lloyd Cantwell?
A. I do not recall that name.
Q. Know anyone in Baltimore named Breen?
A. No, sir; I do not recall the name of Breen.
Q. Know anybody named Carl?
A. I do not know anybody by that name in Baltimore.
Q. K-A-R-L?
A. I know somebody by the name of Carl.
Q. Where?
A. He’s a person by the name Carl Shapiro. He’s a poet.
Q. You started to say you did not know anyone by the name of Carl in Baltimore. Do you know anybody by that name outside of Baltimore?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall a Carl in Washington?
A. I do not recall knowing any Carls from Washington.
Q. Nobody that represented himself by the name of Carl?
A. I do not remember that anyone did answer publicly – by the way, may I smoke?
Q. Yes. Do you do any reproduction work in your printing shop?
A. What kind of reproduction work?
Q. Any kind, outside of straight printing?
A. The only kind that we do – incidentally, I have no printing shop now, to make that clear.
Q. Let me qualify my question. I mean in the period 1936, ’37 and ’38, when you had the business there.
A. No, sir. The only kind of reproduction that we can do is get a cut made by a photo-engraver and then use that cut as we use type.
Q. Is that a long process? Does it take much time?
A. I believe it takes 24 hours or so. We never got a cut back from the photo-engraver in 24 hours.
Q. Did you ever act as a messenger in carrying any papers or anything to Zimmerman?
A. No, sir. I do not recall ever having done that.
Q. You say you do not recall. You would know that, would you?
A. I believe I would.
Q. I believe you would, too. What is your answer?
A. Certainly. The reason I say that again – I may as well explain it – is that in discussing David Zimmerman yesterday it was agreed as – I agree that David had spent a lot of time at my house from time to time, and had even spent nights over there from time to time. He gave mine as a mailing address for a while. Incidentally, I did not recall that. I did not remember giving him any permission to do that for any great length of time. It seems he had it. It is possible a person who did come to the house so often and who I saw so often might have, from time to time, left something, or for somebody to call for, or something of the sort. I do not recall any such situation, but I can’t unqualifiedly say it did not happen. I can’t recall that ever happening.
Q. You say it did not happen?
A. I do not recall that it ever happened.
Q. But you won’t say it did not happen?
A. For the reason I just explained. To my recollection it did not happen.
Q. Mr. Pelovitz, again I remind you, you seem to be a very cooperative witness, and again you are in a position to be extremely helpful. Now, isn’t it a fact that back there in the period of 1937, probably just before you went to New York, probably just before you went to New York and maybe a short while after you got back from your New York job, isn’t it a fact that you used to meet a man regularly and pick up stuff which you would turn over to David Zimmerman or Dave Carpenter?
A. No, sir.
Q. Be perfectly honest with us.
A. I met a man regularly?
Q. Yes, maybe once a week, two weeks, something like that, and pick up a package and bring it over to Dave?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing like that ever happened?
A. No, sir.
Q. Dave do any photography work in your presence?
A. In my presence, no, sir, he never did.
Q. He have a camera in your house while he was staying there?
A. I do not recall that he ever did. I do not recall that he ever stayed there for an extended period of time.
Q. Did you let him use your basement or any room in your house so that he could go there nights and take pictures?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing like that ever happened?
A. No, sir.
Q. Anybody else ever do that in your house?
A. No, sir. I had no basement to let him have, except the one under the shop might have been one [sic], but that was an awfully dirty place.
Q. Did you ever have any equipment at your home or in your printing shop which would enable a person to make quick copies of the other papers?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing like that at all?
A. Any such copy would have to be made by a photographic process as far as I know, and I have no such equipment.
Q. Did you have access to any such equipment?
A. No, sir.
Q. Carpenter have access, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge, he didn’t.
Q. Or Zimmerman?
A. No.
Q. Now, are you aware – you must be aware – of the nature of the activities which Whittaker Chambers engaged in with respect to yourself?
A. With respect to myself?
Q. Yes, with respect to you, yourself.
A. The only hint I had of that has just been the conversation with the FBI agents.
Q. I will tell you right out from the shoulder, Whittaker Chambers says he knows you as Felix and that he regularly used to deliver papers to you to get copies made.
A. Where did he say these were delivered?
Q. At various points in Baltimore.
A. I would say that that was definitely untrue. I do not recall ever having seen him before.
JURORS:
Q. Is the witness sticking at the word regularly? Might you have done it irregularly?
A. I do not recall ever having done it, sir. As I qualified it before, when I explained the circumstances, it is possible that some time or another I may have delivered a message to David Zimmerman or received a message for him. I do not recall circumstances of that kind having happened. They are conceivable. However I definitely say that they did not occur regularly because then I would have recalled them. I also definitely do not recall ever having seen Whittaker Chambers.
Q. Did you know him as George?
A. I do not recall knowing him under any name.
Q. Did you know George?
A. I do not remember the name George as applied to any relationship of this kind.
Q. You mentioned Carl Shapiro?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn’t it possible that Mr. Shapiro – does he look a little bit like Mr. Chambers?
A. Not at all.
Q. He said he wrote poetry, and so does Mr. Chambers.
A. No. Carl Shapiro is – I imagine he’s much younger than Mr. Chambers. He’s younger than I am. He is quite thin or he’s getting a little fat now, but I do not believe I have ever seen Mr. Chambers standing up. I saw him just a couple of hours ago sitting down, but he seems to me to be a taller man. Carl Shapiro is about my height, I believe.
Q. Do you own any camera at all?
A. I do not, and I never have. No, it seems to me that I owned one of those midget Kodaks back maybe 15 or 16 years ago or more, and as an indication of how much I prized that, I remember I traded it in for a pipe and a pouch with a friend of mine. I have no interest in photography and know nothing about it, and barely know how to snap a button on the thing.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Any children?
A. Two.
Q. Did you take the children’s pictures?
A. No. My son, I believe, has one of those Walt Disney cameras which someone gave him as a gift. I don’t know how to put the film in.
Q. Did you develop your own pictures?
A. No, sir; I wouldn’t know how.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. They were sent out, I suppose, to the drugstore.
Q. Carpenter develop them for you – or Zimmerman?
A. He did not develop any pictures for me as I recall, no sir.
Q. If you saw Whittaker Chambers standing up, do you believe it would help you to identify whether or not you had met him before?
A. I am pretty sure it wouldn’t.
Q. You testified here you did not recognize him sitting down.
A. No, sir, I do not recall saying that. I just said I believe in answer to the lady’s question that I imagine sitting down he was taller than the person I was talking about.
Q. Did you have enough of an opportunity, outside this morning, to observe Whittaker Chambers, to know definitely whether or not you had previously met him?
A. I believe so.
Q. We’ll ask a man to step in here, and may the record again show that this gentleman just stepped in. You say nothing while he’s here. He just looked at him, and after he leaves, we’ll ask you some questions. Say nothing now.
(At this point, Mr. Donegan [the U.S. Attorney] left the room and returned with a gentleman who, after a short interval, left the room.)
Q. Did you recognize the man who just stepped in the grand jury room?
A. Only as the man I saw in the other room.
Q. You do not know him as having met him in Baltimore?
A. I do not recall ever having met him in Baltimore.
Q. Or anywhere else?
A. Or anywhere else.
(A short recess was taken, during which Mr. Pelovitz remained in the grand jury room.)
MR. WHEARTY: Mr. Pelovitz, would you step out just a second?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(WITNESS EXCUSED)